There’s more to North Korea than what headlines would indicate, at least for Simon Cockerell and Katharina Hesse, two Beijing-based expatriate professionals whose projects often center around the isolated country, and bring them into contact with North Korean nationals.
Hesse and Cockerell’s experience with North Korea are in some ways a study of contrasts. Through his work with Koryo Tours, Cockerell’s understanding of North Korea is one deepened by sympathy for long-time friends with whom he has worked together for years. Hesse’s work with North Korean refugees meanwhile brings a more somber perspective to the food shortage problems that are facing the DPRK.
As experienced expatriates, both Cockerell and Hesse also know a few things about navigating China, share their stories of Chinese taxi drivers, and how they’ve become accustomed to utilizing Beijing as an entry point into the remote region of Northeast China, and of course, North Korea. Here’s what they had to say about a little known country that looms large in the imagination.
AsianTalks: As foreigners who know so little about the country, we try to define North Korea along lines of familiarity. Have you seen this phenomenon in your daily lives?
Katharina: In the past weeks I spent quite a bit of time with Chinese in their twenties. I found it kind of interesting how they were just trying to put North Korea into perspective in relation to their own country. The comparison to China during the Cultural Revolution often came up. I found it interesting such a remark would come from pretty young people.
Simon: I find that interesting too. There’s something about North Korea that draws people in to make comparisons with what they know, because so little is known about the place. Again, this will be a massive generalization, but almost all Chinese people will say, “Well, it’s the same as China.” Anyone from East Germany or from Albania will say, “They’re the same as East Germans or Albanians.”
So I find that very interesting the way that people project their own knowledge and experience onto the place, and sometimes it doesn’t help to develop a deeper understanding of North Korea.
People also tend to ignore Juche. North Korea is often described as a Stalinist country, but the Juche idea is very much based on the assumption that everybody has the same blood. Everybody shares the same ancestry. So when people make these direct comparisons, I think they are painting in very broad strokes.
AsianTalks: When working alongside North Korea, what are the advantages of utilizing China as a base for your projects?
Katharina: I don’t think it’s really an advantage to be based in China. There are also some aspects of the work that can’t be done in China, it has to be done from (South) Korea. But Beijing and Shanghai are both bases for foreign media in China, and Beijing is very close to the North Korean border. That maybe is an advantage. But you could be based in Bangkok, or Seoul, and you could communicate much more openly than in China, I assume.
Simon: For our business, tourism to North Korea, Beijing is the entry point. It’s not the only one, but it’s by far the prevalent one.
The main disadvantage to being in Beijing is that it’s poisonous! And every breath you take, takes weeks off your life. So that’s the main disadvantage, but what are you going to do.
AsianTalks: Simon, would you say the air is cleaner in Pyongyang?
Simon: I would say so. Despite the presence of two, coal-burning power stations in the city itself, the air in Pyongyang is very, very fresh. There’s just not so much industry or traffic. So visit there for no other reason than to clear your lungs! That’s our new pitch.
AsianTalks: As polluted as Beijing may be, both of you have made the city your home for quite some time. Are there any advantages or disadvantages to being a Western expatriate in China?
Katharina: I’m not sure if there’s any advantage. I think just like other countries they sometimes have little stereotypes about some countries. Like Germany, supposedly we work very hard, or we have BMWs, Mercedes Benz, otherwise I don’t see any advantages or disadvantages.
Simon: When I take a taxi in Beijing, and the driver asks where you’re from, if you say England, it means you’re going to have a conversation about football. So I generally say Belarus, Iceland, or something like that, if I want to talk about nothing, Russia if I want to talk about alcohol, or Germany if I want to talk about cars.
And I don’t want to generalize too much or anything but you’re still a laowai, right? There’s not that much of a difference. You’re still a foreigner.
AsianTalks: You’ve both been to northeast China. How tied is the region to North Korea?
Katharina: It’s a pretty remote area. There is quite a big ethnic Korean minority living there. They’re also the people who actually help out North Korean refugees first when they come out of the border.
I read that China has already fortified the border a little bit, in the past weeks. There probably would be North Koreans trying to come to China, which maybe China does not exactly welcome. So you don’t really know what’s going to happen.
Simon: There’s a lot of Chinese business that goes on in North Korea. A lot of Chinese businessmen, a lot of imports, exports. There are people making money there. Their main market is China. China is flooded with cheap labor, of course, but still the North Koreans will work for less than the Chinese.
So there would be some advantage to Chinese manufacturing businesses to have such places in North Korea. And let’s not forget — there is a free trade zone, on the Chinese border already for a long time, the Rason area, but it’s not a huge success. The infrastructure there is poor, it’s very remote, it doesn’t work so well, so it’s hard to see, it could go either way, really.
Katharina: What about the area opposite Dandong? Because when you go to Dandong you see so many businesspeople both from China and North Korea.
Simon: Absolutely. That’s really the big hope. And that seems to me, a much more viable prospect. When I was last in Dandong, a few months ago, you could see these islands, there was nothing but a few farmhouses on them, but a law to turn it into a free manufacturing zone had just been passed.
There are also new bridges being built there, between Dandong and the Sinuiju area on the other side of the river. So that seems much more viable.
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